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  5. WS500 Troubles - Not Sensing Alternator, Blinking Red But No Error Code on Victron Cerbo

WS500 Troubles - Not Sensing Alternator, Blinking Red But No Error Code on Victron Cerbo

  • J

    I've got a WS500 within a LiFePo system with a Balmar XT250, REC Active BMS and Victron Multiplus & Cerbo GX.

    It's been working quite well for 18+ months, though this past weekend my alternator just stopped charging. I worked through a number of troubleshooting methods thinking it could be the BMS or alternator, but to no avail. While I could see the Wakespeed on my Victron panel and it was reporting alternator temp, it would not report field drive, speed or engine speed.

    I finally got things working again when I checked the wiring connections... it appeared the wiring harness on the back of the alternator was loose. Once I did this the alternator immediately produced current and I was seeing the field, speed & engine speed on the Victron panel.

     

    However, this lasted for about 30 minutes before the readings were lost again. I have rechecked the wiring connections and they all seem to be good. 

    While my Victron panel reports no error from the Wakespeed, the Wakespeed module itself shows a constant amber (red?) flashing which I understand from the manual is a 'restarting' or error cue.

    I've also shut down and restarted the engine and therefore the WS500, and the same condition exists after restart.

    Any tips on troubleshooting this?

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  • B

    Suggested test:

    1. Check the fuse in the red cable to alternator.

     

    2. Check fuse voltage sense wire.

     

    3. Post picture back side alternator.

     

    4. With engine running test with a automotive style test light.(NO LED light)

    Connect one side from the  light to negative, other to side to blue wire.

    Comes the light on?

     

    5. After above test, Connect WS500 to a phone run the app, and make a logfile. ( With running engine)

    Post the log file here.

     

     

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  • R

    The thought that first comes to mind is that you may have a pin on the harness that is pushed back a bit.  Maybe try opening the case and using a jewlers screwdriver, reset all pins.

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  • B

    One extra note.

    According the manual, always remove FIRST both fuses, before disconnect the connector from the WS500 device.

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  • J

    Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the help.

    Pins... I removed the fuses and cable, and checked for pins and all were in the their proper positions.

    Fuses... I checked the fuses on the voltage sense wire and power wire from alternator and both were

    intact and functional.

    Light... I didn't have an automotive light but I do have a multimeter and I received 12.33 volts from the blue wire to ground while the engine was running.

    Picture... here's a picture of the back of the alternator. Sorry for the mess, I removed a bunch of the wire/cable management while troubleshooting.

    Log File... here's a link to two log files. The first log file was started before the engine was started. The second log file started while the engine was running for a few minutes.

    Last Fault Details... before starting the engine, I reviewed the last fault details from the WS app. Here's a screengrab of those details:

     

    Unfortunately, I'm still stuck with the system not seeming to get any signal from the alternator and therefore not asking the alternator to produce a charge.

     

    What's next?

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  • B

    Nice report back.

    The test on the blue FIELD wire shows that the regulator is working. ALthought the test with a multimeter can be not correct, because there is not any load on it.  Do you have any light bulb on board, to repeat this test. Connect the lightbulb (2 , 5 , 10or 20W) parallel on your multimeter test leads.    If the light comes on , like the voltage reading you see, THEN problem is not in the WS500, but in your alternator.   To test your alternator: Disconnect the blue wire, and supply a direct positve to the contact where the blue wire was connected. Do this only a short time, 2/3 secounds, have a amp clamp meter over the heavy red output wire. The alterantor will deliver full amps output, voltage will go higher. Dont do this test with full batteries. If NO maps with this test, the problem is in the alternator.

     

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  • J

    Unfortunately, everything on the boat is LED. I will stop by an automotive store and pick up a DC low wattage light bulb and give this test a try.

    As for the alternator test... what do you mean by a 'direct positive on the contact where the blue wire is connected'. Do you mean a direct 12v connection from a battery positive terminal or load bus essentially removing the WS500?

     

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  • J

    Okay... here are the latest results.

    Firmware Update... before I did the two tests I updated the firmware from 2.4.3 to 2.5. Here's the logfile after updating Firmware.  Updating firmware did not resolve the issues. Still no readings on the Cerbo panel for speed or engine speed and no charging.

    Field Wire Light Bult Test... used a 10W bulb wired in parallel with multimeter leads. Started engine and the light illuminated. I took a picture showing the multimeter was reflecting 6.41 volts. I did notice on my Cerbo panel when the light was illuminated I was finally getting engine speed and alternator speed values, though I wasn't getting any charge into the batteries. Thought this was interesting.

    Below is a picture (definitely some less than ideal wiring here, but it did the job).  Here is a WS500 log file during this test.

     

    Direct Positive Connection Test... I provided the blue wire with a direct positive connection to our starter battery (13.43v) which was nearby while protecting it with a direct inline fuse.  When connected to the positive source, I could here the engine working harder and the amp clamp showed 60-80 amps coming from the alternator. So it appears the alternator is working. Here's a video of the multimeter during this test.  I also ran a WS500 Log File during this test for reference.

     

    ***** Final Test - Alternator Now Charging... Hooray & WT**? ***
    As I was wrapping up testing, I thought I would just try the engine again to see if any of the testing might have reset something... and to confirm the previous condition still existed. I started the engine and after a few seconds I could hear it working harder, and observed 100amps charging through the Cerbo panel and could see values in the speed/engine speed. Here's a log file for this instance of testing.

    Just to confirm, I waited about 10 minutes while finished up this message and tried the engine again and once again it immediately started delivering 100 amps.

     

    Cause of the Issue?  I'm supremely confused at this point. The only substantive change I've made to the system is the upgrade to the firmware mentioned above... and this did not immediately resolve the issue.

    I have worked with the field wire and installed a spade terminal connector inline to facilitate testing however this is the only new connection and the previous connections are all the same... so I don't believe this is an issue of wiring connections being faulty.

    Is it possible the direct positive connection test somehow reset the WS500, BMS or Alternator? 

    I'd love to know the cause or potential resolution here, as if I encounter this again away from internet services I'd love to be able to solve it.

     

    Thanks for all the help here. Would love to hear your thoughts on what made the difference and how to prevent reoccurence of the issue.

     

     

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  • B

    Good that you have thing working, nice feedback reports

    I dont know exactly why you had the zero amps charging.
    I dont see any relation with frimware update.

    Not any update that could have solve the problem, comes in my mind.
    Reading your post, I think somewhere a connection problem.

    I dont see any problem in one off the reports you have post.

    extra explanation:
    The WS500 wills start working when the brown wire has voltage.

    BUT to get amps out off your alterantor, you need positve on the red  and a bit later on the blue, but negative need also be correct. The negative is many times overlooking.

    With your Balmar, I dont see the heavy negative from the battery connected to the alternator, this goes through the engine brackets.
    In the manaul Balmar advise, that a heavy negative can be mounted at the spanner hole.

    You could check or this negative gives voltage drop or bad conenction.( check when alternator produce 150Amp++)

    On the picture I see that negative cables are under unneseary stress.  This becasue the cable-t at red arrow is mounted wrong.
    There should be never tension on small wires, soon or later the will break.

    My complements about your feedback reports, this make trouble shooting easier.

    I few other things.
    Your alterantor temp setting is at 100 degrees.
    personally I like a little lower setting.

    But where is your is your fuse in the red wire? 

    I can not clearly see the terminals on the positive from alterantor.  The sequence if multiply terminals should be:. alterantor connection/big +cable/ red ws500/red balmar protect.


    I suggest to do one more test or your alternator has no damage.
    You had charge bus disconnects I read in other posts.
    Check on the back off alternator with your multimeter the AC value. (not DC)
    This should be very low.

     

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  • J

    First overnight trip on the boat since all the troubleshooting, and it was super frustrating. When I left troubleshooting the WS500 as communicating with the alternator and the batteries were charging with 100-150 Amps from the Balmar XT250 which is what I would expect.

     

    Outbound - No Charge

    However, on the outbound leg of our trip which included about 2 hours of motoring we didn't get more than 15 minutes of charge from the alternator. It initially sensed engine/alternator speed and then it dropped out and didn't return. I confirmed during this time with a direct connection to the field drive (blue wire) from a different battery (starter) providing 13.2v the alternator would immediately start charging again. However when disconnected the external source, the alternator would return to no charge. I reviewed all wiring connections and they looked secure, and moving them had no effect on the performance of the system.

     

    Updates

    Early the next morning, I made the suggested changes from the above post... removing the less than ideal wiring management and reterminating the kinked ground connection (engine room fan). I also replaced the wiring connections for the field (blue to blue) and stator (white to yellow) figuring there may flaws in the connections (though I was skeptical of this because the systems worked well for 18 months prior with these connections).

    I also updated the Victron Multiplus/Bus firmware to the latest edition during my morning work.

    Return Trip

    The return trip started well, though confusing. Our SOC was down to about 70% and when we started motoring I saw the system ramp up charge however it started at 20 amps and only ramped up to about 50 amps... which is a small fraction of the capacity of the alternator, and a surprisingly low level given the SOC and the low temp of the alternator. You can see in the graph the field drive percentage dropped down to the 20% range.

     

    The good news was the WS500 was seeing the alternator/engine speeds and seeminly controlling the alternator output - so I figured this was just a settings/configuration issue.

    However, after about 20 minutes the alternator/engine speeds dropped out for about 15 minutes... returned for about 5 minutes... then dropped out for 25 minutes... returned for 20 minutes and then did not return for the rest of the return trip.

    During this time, I did the lamp test to confirm the field was delivering voltage and it was though at a lower level than I saw previously when I performed the test.

    *** Not sure if this is notable, but the engine tach was reporting 2550 RPM, my normal cruising throttle, and the WS500/Cerbo was reflecting 2850 RPM (when it was showing data). ***

     

    Conclusion

    At this point, I'm supremely confused by the data drop outs... I've checked all the WS500 connections and alternator connections. All device firmware (Victron, WS500 & REC BMS) is up to date. The lamp and direct connection tests return positive results... so I'm wondering it there is something going on with the WS500, and if I should look at swapping it out to see if its the weak link here.

     

     

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  • B

    @Jamie 

    Low output, you made setting that field goes to max 75%.

    Probably you have select small alternator mode. This reduce the Max amps.

    If you see field 100%, alternator produce the Max amps, depending on rpm, pulley size etc.

     

    In the grafic you see a reducing from the field.

    This means the regulator is regulating, all good.

    If you post a log file, I can see why the regulating is regulating to a lower field.

    Maybe, the set voltage is reached.  Maybe max tempert is reached.

     

    Not seeing rpm, probably the regulator is regulating further downward below the value the alternator is producing any output.

     

    If there is NO output, there is NO rpm.

    The RPM is read from the produced output from the alternator.

     

    It looks like the alternator stop working because the internal setpoint voltage/ temperature are reached.

     

    A logfile will give this information.

    Check or the problem you have is visible on the logfile.  You will see reduced field output.

  • J

    Thanks Ben. I'll be back at the boat tonight, and will run a few tests and create a log file.  I really wish the WS500 came with an external USB or Bluetooth connection so I didn't have to disassemble it to create a log file.

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  • B

    Hello Jamie,. I check your VRM.

    CVL is limiting the output from the WS500 at 13.4V. 

    I have posted suggested settings for you. After posting I recognised that there was an error in mine calculation Excell sheet.

    I have update that post with the settings a while ago .

    Iam pretty sure, change to that latest posted settings and recharge will charge when batterries are below 5% soc.

    Sorry for the mis communication.

     

     

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  • B

    I checked above and dont see the suggested setting. Maybe the post is deleted by mistake.

    try these settings.


    BVOL? balance END V   3.52
    BMIN? balance START V    3.45
    RAZL? MAX allowed cell V difference  0.25
    CHAR? END of Charging V   3.52
    CHIS?  END off charging V Hys  0.17
    CMAX? MAX allowed cell V   3.65
    MAXH MAX allowed cell V Hys  0.25
    CMIN? MIN allowed cell V   2.8
    MIMH? MIN allowed cell V Hys  0.1
    CLOW? MIN cell V discharge (inverter  through CAN?) 2.9 
    CFVC? Charge float voltage Coefficient (CFCV)  1
    SOCH? SOCH end off charge hystory(in%)  5

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  • J

    Thanks Ben.

    Here's what I had for the 'original' recommended settings, which should be by current settings... I believe I posted them with a question earlier:



    Here's the new settings you posted earlier, and are reflected above. I've highlighted the changes from the original:

     

    Forgiven my potentially foolish questions here...

    Question 1: In your earlier post, when say "recharge will charge when batterries are below 5% soc" ... Do you mean:

    1. The bank will go down to 12v (each battery to 3.0v) before the system (multiplus or alternator) would start charging?

    2. The bank charge whenever below 95% SOC (100% - 5% SOC End of Charge Hysteresis)... however will stop charging at 95% and then will enter float charge to get to 99%?

    I'm assuming it's #2, as 5% would be very low and lower than EVE's recommendation of a lowest 10% SOC.

    Question 2: In a separate message, you mentioned your settings "Recharge to 14.0 V will start after batterry discharge is 12.8V."

    Can you help me understand how this is reflected in the new settings? I would assume I'm looking for a 3.2V (12.8 / 4) somewhere in the settings but I'm not seeing this. Frankly, many of the settings are a bit of a mystery to me as this isn't my specialty and I don't see definitions of them in the manual. So I'm just trying to understand... if you have a resource to help me better understand how the settings work, I'm happy to read/listen/watch whatever you recommend.


    Question 3: I'm a bit concern about allowing the system to get down to so low (12.8v) before recharging, as I'm concerned I'd arrive at the boat and it would be less than 60-70% charged and I woudn't be able to use the boat without motoring to charge the batteries. A major reason I want a LiFePo system is to reduce the need to run my motor and increase the time I'm able to stay at anchor or off grid. If this means I lose 20-30% of cycles from the system by keeping high levels of SOC, I'm okay with it.

    Aside from losing the longest possible life of the system, is there any reason I shouldn't start recharging when the system reaches 75%?

     

    Thank You! I really appreciate your help and patience. It has taught me a lot about the system.

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  • B

    @Jamie 

    All settings are described in the manual.Although I didn't check the latest manual.I agree that understanding the product, needs some time to study the parameters you can make.
    The float and restart as example, are calculated from the other programmable parameters.Maybe in another post I can post the excel sheet I use.(will take a few weeks, because limited time)

    Your Question 1:Setting  "SOCH end off charge hysteresis" 
    setting 5 means 95%.  (This is a hysteresis setting, like there is also for end off charge)
    Your Question 2:After a full charge the system goes to a lower voltage, to stop charging, mainly called a float voltage.
    To activate a recharge from float to bulk a few parameters need to be reached.-below a certain voltage  "formula: (4*( (CHAR-CHIS)-0,01)"   AND below SOCH setting.
    Your question 3:Settings are always a personal choice, there are too many different approaches to what people think is the best for the lifepo4 batteries.Also depend on how you use them.If you get the understanding how the parameters work, you can program any charge profile you like.My planned post, no time for it now, will explain more about the settings.

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  • J

    Thanks Ben. I'm just wrapping up at the boat and heading out.

    I'm hopeful I might have resolved things with your help. Here's the breakdown of efforts.

    WS500

    WS500 Log 1
    Updated BMS settings to recommendations.

    Started Log prior to starting engine. Ran engine for 5 minutes. Did not see any change in status of the WS500 in sensing alternator or engine speed. Field drive stayed at 75% entire time.

    Turned off engine.

    --------------------------------------------------

    ****** Updated to Wakespeed Android App to Version 1.7.

    ****** Updated WS5000 Configuration via App. Here's a link to screenshots of the settings.

    WS 500 Log 2
    Started log about 20-30 seconds after engine startup and after updating the WS500 configuration.

    Still no change... not sensing the alternator or engine speeds.

    WS500 Log 3
    Started logging prior to startup. No sensing of alternator/engine speed.

    Disconnected field wire and lamp tested. Lamp lit up.

    Reconnected. Immediately got speed/engine speed.

    Immediately saw 90 Amps charging. Continued charging until stopped logging via WS App. When I stopped logging the WS500 lost engine/alternator speed. Cycled a few times catching it, beginning to charge, then losing it. After a few cycles finally caught the engine/alternator speeds and charged well for another 15 minutes before I shut things down.

     

    Conclusion

    Things look promising at this point. I'm hesitant to call it 'good' until I get a longer cruise in a week or two, but things appear stable for now. Hopefully it was the settings which did the magic.

    I think it was interesting that the 'lamp test' seemed to reset things, and also that stopping the logging process also seemed to reset the WS500 and cause it to cycle a few times before it caught up with the sensors. A bit odd, but hopefully not problematic in the future.

     

     

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  • B

    @Jamie

     

    Some extra info about your latest logfiles.In the logfile you AST.


    The values after AST are explained in the WS500 documentation.

    Values that I see, and important for you at the moment:

    39,  means WS500 is under control from bms

    14.1,  the goal voltage that is received from BMS

    75,  how hard the alternator is triggered on the field.

    (75, is because you have set a limit, probably small alternator setting, if that is not set, you will see 100)


    Please confirm or the below is correct.
    -you mention, you dont see amps on the alternator output, when the logfile shows 75. (This is strange for me).
    You did the following:

    -take off the blue wire from the alternator

    -connect a test light to this blue wire

    -notice light comes on.

    -remove the light

    -reconnect the blue to the alternator

    -notice alternator produce amps

     

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  • J

    Yep, this is correct. After the lamp test, (disconnect blue, light lamp with blue and reconnect) the alternator worked well.

    I'm not sure why the 75% max. Here are my alternator settings via the app:

     

    I don't believe I'm using small alternator mode though it does look like there is an adjustment to set a maximum field drive.

     

     

     

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  • B

    @Jamie 

    If you see 75 field drive, the alternator should produce amp. 

    Why your alternator don't produce amps is strange.

     

    I don't see the logic why it starts produce amps after checking with a test light.

    Please repeat this test a few times to see or this behaviour is consequently every time the same. 

    Or can you connect the test light in parallel to the blue wire, keep the blue to alternator connected.

    Please report back.

     

    At this point I don't think there is anything wrong and this problem has nothing to do with settings, firmware or reset the ws500, or REC BMS or GX, because you see 75% drive.

     

    As I didn't have seen this particularly problem before I don't know what cause this problem.

    Maybe someone else have a explanation what's happen here?

     

    My feeling says this is something with wiring or alternator.  

    I can almost not believe it is a hardware problem in the ws500. (Because the testlight show it is working)

    But maybe the bad connection on back off alternator you mention in the begin off this post have damaged something in the WS500. 

    Next step , test with another WS500 or alternator

    As technician, easy to try another WS500, not easy for a customer.

    Lets see what other people say.

    @Rick    @Al Thomason 

     

     

    About your 75 max field: check or the dipswitch setting is correct.  Is small alternator activated by dipswitch?

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  • B

    @Ben@JamieAs I almost can not believe that the problem is in the WS00, can you clarify some off your wiring.

     

    Where is the big alternator negative cable connected, the negative cable that goes to the battery? Can you post a picture?

     

    Also a picture that show the ws500 negative cable.  Have on side off your testlight connected to this point if you do the field output test.

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  • J

    Just checked the WS500 dip switches and you are correct, the small alternator mode dip switch was "On".

    At this point here are my switches:

    1 - Off (House Battery)

    2 - Off (House Battery)

    3 - On (Custom LiFePo Charge Profile)

    4 - On (Custom LiFePo Charge Profile)

    5 - On (Custom LiFePo Charge Profile)

    6 - On (>750ah)

    7 - Off (>750ah)

    8 - Off (Small Alternator Off)

     

    I started the engine, and the WS500 was recognizing the engine/alternator speed within about 30 seconds. My batteries were 99% full so I didn't see a field charge in excess of 50%. Though I'll look for that in the future.

    At this point, I'm going to see how things perform before doing more testing, as it apears from last visit things were working well. If I have any troubles, I'll start with the tests you suggest in your last post.

    Thanks again!

     

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