Spiking/Pulsing Charging
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I installed a WS500 last fall and am seeing some strange behavior. My setup is a a 320A Leece-Neville alternator, 4x Rolls AGM batteries as a house bank, and a single Rolls AGM as a starting battery charged via an ACR. Diagram attached. I used a stock configuration created via the iOS app. Firmware 2.5.0 to support my Cerbo. When in bulk mode things work just as I would hope, driving the alternator to put around 200A into the house bank (plus handling the running loads). Current stays high as the voltage climbs. However, when in acceptance or float modes the current pulses about every 4 seconds or so between what I would expect and basically zero. Not at all the smooth curve I anticipated. I\'m concerned about both the effect on charging time and the stress on the alternator with this behavior. A short video of the behavior can be seen here: https://youtu.be/16Go_YmYP64 My initial thought was that the ACR was causing a problem so I disconnected it and the start battery from the system. The spiking behavior remained the same. I contacted tech support and was told this in my case this was the intended behavior. I\'m not comfortable with this answer (charge time and alternator stress). Tech support could not tell me what elements of my configuration would cause this nor specifically what was going on. To be happy with this installation I need to understand just what is happening here. Can anyone offer any insight? Thanks.
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This looks strange for me, especially how the voltage can drop from 14.4V back to 13.0V in seconds. Looks like a connection problem in the battery cables. Can you add all regulator wires in the diagram, to see where they are all connected? Also add info from how many AWG the cables are. And post a movie or picture from all connection.
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Quote from Ben on January 10, 2023, 7:54 pmThis looks strange for me, especially how the voltage can drop from 14.4V back to 13.0V in seconds. Looks like a connection problem in the battery cables. Can you add all regulator wires in the diagram, to see where they are all connected? Also add info from how many AWG the cables are. And post a movie or picture from all connection. You can give also viewing excess to VRM, which sometimes gives additional tech information.
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A connection problem seems unlikely to me - recall that this only occurs in acceptance and float. In bulk everything looks fine. I don\'t see how a connection problem would work that way. All regulator wires are connected correctly and battery sense is on the battery itself. I\'m not at the boat now to check exact sizes, but the cables are properly sized to handle up to 300A. Again, when running in bulk mode and outputting ~250A (200 into the batteries) all is fine.
You can give also viewing excess to VRM, which sometimes gives additional tech information.
Not sure what you\'re suggesting here but I\'d be glad to know if there is a good way to tease out some more information about what is going on. I need to press tech support more on this. I\'m just not understanding how this can be considered normal. Thanks!
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I have exactly the same problem and I know I am not alone. I am concerned about the effects that this fluctuation/spiking will have on all the powered devices. Surely it can not be dismissed as "normal functioning"
I have seen posts on other boating forums (TF) with people discussing exactly this issue. To date I have not been able to find a Thread that provided as solution.
I was hoping that there was some further information regarding a solution to this issue.
Thank you
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Richard OGM Support Staff
I am going to include Al fromWakespeed in this thread and see if he can provide any insight.
@Al Thomason
@Rick Admin
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@Mike Our boat has been in storage for the past few months and so I've let this issue lie. We're back on the water in a week or two and I then plan to push to understand what is going on here.
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The problem persists. I've verified all connections, verified that the WS500 is reading the shunt correctly.
I haven't heard any response here or in other forums.
How do I get support for this problem?
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@Mike Support has acknowledged this isn't expected bahavior. At their suggestion I reverted the firmware from 2.5.0 to 2.4.3. Surprisingly, 2.4.3 is much better here. To me the 2.4.3 behavior is acceptable whereas the 2.5.0 behavior in my installation is not.
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Has anyone heard anymore of this issue, now 6 to 9 months old. I have also seen the reports elsehere and when I saw them from my background in process control I thought it was a controller tuning issue (PID settings). I also looked back at the FW 2.4.3 to 2.5.0 release notes and that stated that 2.5.0 has "Revised PID tuning of amperage regulation". The inference as 2.4.3 is better is that in some installations the revised tuning in 2.5.0 was worse. I note that the smartphone app was recently updated with some comment that it was for upcoming firmware and I think one of the changes was to include a switch to disable fast ramping.
The reason for asking is I have a unit ready to install but I am holding back due to this issue. Here in the UK there have been some reports of this behaviour causing trouble on boats causing cycling of the engine rpm in installations similar to mine and several installations where WS500s have been removed and replaced by a MasterVolt Alpha Pro.
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Rick OGM Support Staff
In early October Wakspeed released 2.5.1 Beta firmware update. I havent had a chance to try it out myself yet but here are the release notes they sent us.
By way of this comment I am also including Al from Wakespeed and maybe he can add some insight.
I just checked and it is not yet available on the WS500 product site, but hopefully soon.
Thanks
Rick
@Al Thomason
Today we are releasing version 2.5.1 firmware for the WS500, please find attached the .DFU file as well as the BETA copy of the associated Wakespeed Communications and Configuration Guide. Page 3 of which goes into some detail around what has changed between 2.5.1 and 2.5.0; highlights include:
- Suppression of nuance FLT 91 issuance when no BMS is involved. FLT 91 (Note really a Fault, but a Notification) was added in 2.5.0 to notify customers that the WS500 has lost its CAN connection to a battery BMS. A useful feature as it allows supporting displays to alert the operator of this condition. However, in cases where no BMS is involved, and instead two or more WS500's are acting in a Master/slave condition, this stopping of the Master regulator would also trip this #91 -- even though the remaining WS500 is able to take up the Master Role seamlessly.
Think marine installs with Twin Engines and an AGM battery bank.
In 2.5.1 notification of FLT 91 is only sent if the 'Master' was a BMS, not another WS500.
- New option for Feature-out to hold the lamp steady during fault conditions, as opposed to blinking out the fault number.
- Increased support of Current Shunt Ratios from 20K to 60K, to allow support of higher current shunts.
- Added support for MG Energy SmartLink battery controller.
- Correction of Victron VE.can issue with conflicting current information sent in from Skyla chargers (and some other devises) confusing the true battery current value sent by Lynx BMS.
- Change in how Tack Mode and Minimum Field Drive is handled -- changed to be more permissive, please refer to Page 4 for details on this and make sure to consider any existing install which is using Tach Mode.
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I installed a 2.5.1 beta back at the beginning of the summer. The behavior of that version in acceptance mode is 'correct' - smooth and just what I'd expect. In float mode the behavior is improved: still some jumping around but not all the time and not as severe.
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Thanks for the update, I will hang on as things look good.
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Rick OGM Support Staff
If you need a copy of the BETA let me know and I will get you a copy for testing if you like,.
Rick
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That would be appreciated, I know I did not buy it from you, I have sent a technical query message with email. I will then get it installed if I get chance before winter.
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Rick OGM Support Staff
sure, I will look for it and send you the file. Please keep in mind this a beta release and should be treated accordingly.
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Rick OGM Support Staff
sure, I will look for it and send you the file. Please keep in mind this a beta release and should be treated accordingly.
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Rick,
I am having the same issue with the "pulsing" charge. Can you also send me the beta.
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Rick OGM Support Staff
sure, just send me a request to support@ogm-energy.com
And please keep in mind this a beta release and should be treated accordingly.
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Hello.
<Disclaimer: Al with Wakespeed>
In 2.5.0 we indeed 'tightened things up' in support of some higher power 48v systems, but seems might have gotten things a little too tight.. We did received a few (non 48v) customers who had cycling issues, and changed 2.5.1 to re-addresses this core aspect. Those customers who we worked with reported good results.
2.5.1 should be generally available soon. Look to the Wakespeed website, as well as the Wakespeed App, as it will be supplied with 2.5.1 once it is available via a Cloud based resource.
Now, there can be some other causes -- so a few ideas:
1) Really simple to test 2.5.0 vs 2.4.3, if issue still present not related to core change.
2) Sometimes smaller engines, especially those with older mechanical injector systems, can show this type of cycling with a large alternator -- especially at lower RPMs. White-Space is one way to reduce the alternator loading at lower RPMs and sometimes can help. A nice feature is by using the Feature-in wire, White-space can be switched on and off in real time -- example, switching it while underway and then off while at anchor to get full alternator output capability without any RPM related reductions.
3) There is a feature know as Fast Ramp in the WS500, it is where we are more aggressive ramping up the alternator when all the actual are far away from the goals / limits. Ala, Vbat at 13v when goal is 14.4v, ramping will happen faster and then slow down as Vbat approaches 14.4v But this too can sometimes set up cycling loops with some engines, again large alt, small engine. Use the toggle 'Disable Fast Ramp' in the Wakespeed app (Alternator Tab with Expert Mode on), or alternatively use a negative value for Engine Warm-up delay if using another configuration method.
Hope this helps, and would be good to hear feedback from folks who had an issue of any of the above address it.
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